---

 
Maybe we should hear people who are living happy lives now who grew up in houses where they weren't wanted and you can tell them you would have spared them their life out of some sense of charity.

---

Had then never been born, and never had a fully functioning brain, then they would never have known.

But then again, why don't you talk to the children who's mothers put them in a dumpster after they were born?  Then again, those one's don't usually make it.  Or the babies who are killed through induced miscarriage in later stages of the cycle.

If the mother doesn't want to, and can't take care of it, then they WON'T.  It's as simple as that.  Those that are against abortion won't kill their kid, or force themselves to have a miscarriage.  They will make sure the child has a good life (whether that means raising the child themself, or putting the child up for adoption).  But there are many people that want an abortion, and they will do anything to get rid of the child.

Likewise, I can talk to myself.  I was an accident, quite clearly.  Being born with two parents that had been arguing from birth, and I was born ten years after both my sisters.  All my life, I've grown up feeling that I'm part of the reason to blame that my parents were still together.  My dad telling me that he was suffering for ME, and that he was 'living in this hell hole' for me.  Don't get me wrong, my parents loved me, I love my life.  Then again, I started thinking about suicide when I was 10, and up until recently (at 18) I'm finally out of that stage, now that I've moved out.

But even today, I still blame myself a bit... there are days where that hatred comes back and I want to give it up.  I hate the "sacrifices" people make for me... they love me, so they hurt themselves for me?  Many, MANY times, I have thought myself better of dead, and better off not born.  My older sister once slipped up, and said in front of me and my dad, "then you shouldn't have had a THIRD child".

I got lucky, my parents were older, my dad was pretty wealthy.  But an argument between my parents caused him to give that up, make us move, and money became a LARGE issue.  Every day it was, "I honestly don't have the money", "I can't give you any money for gas", "I don't have the money to buy toilet paper" (I always have my own roll of toilet paper in my room now because of the one time he refused to buy toilet paper and I had to take some home from school every day).  Of course... my dad was a bit weird... He had the money, I think... but because of the arguments between him and my mom (and they wouldn't divorce, probably because they felt some kind of duty to me), he wouldn't buy toilet paper...

But that gets me thinking... what about those that can't financially afford the child?  Can't take the child to see a psychologist or a doctor after she's had 8 months of straight back pain?  What about those that can't bring the child the basic needs he or she needs?

All in all?  I see it this way.  HAD I been aborted, I wouldn't KNOW of a life to miss.  I wouldn't have had a conscious brain... I don't even remember before I was 4-5 years old.  I had a good life to be honest... some things were a bit messed up (but that's everyone's life, and I am SO thankful for everything I've been given), but at least I had parents that LOVED me.  I WAS wanted... I can't imagine living in a household growing up knowing you WEREN'T wanted, because the only thing that kept me going was knowing I had people that cared.  It's because of the way ~I~ grew up that I can understand abortion... though it makes me truly upset if someone doesn't even bother to take the right steps to avoid the pregnancy in the first place.

----

Overall, I can't imagine aborting a child myself.  But there are some people that AREN'T fit to be mothers, but they still have the child.  I've seen a few cases of it... and it hurts to see.  The child is so innocent, and yet the mother is out partying every day, spends all her money on clothes, and never bothered to help teach her chid how to read.  Then again, knowing this person, chances are, she didn't use birth control and that's why it happened.

The thought of being forced to abort my own child is enough to bring me to tears.  It's the only thing I want out of life... to raise a family.  Could I abort a child?  Probably not... but then again, I'm not planning on getting pregnant any time soon.

I need to work on writing less -__-'.

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Quote: from Praise the Lard at 1:37 pm on July 21, 2008

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Quote: from Elm at 1:30 pm on July 21, 2008

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Quote: from Praise the Lard at 10:26 pm on July 16, 2008

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i don't feel the need to equate abortion to anything  
  it's just the right thing to do  
  there are too many people around

---

  Then you wouldn't mind removing yourself would you?

---

 

 that would be a waste of money  
 i have 20 years of food, housing, schooling, etc invested in me that would be lost if i died  
 killing unborn babies is a pittance relative to the hundreds of thousands that i am worth

---

Your worth is only based on what someone is willing to pay you. Money invested in you doesn't equate worth or even as Marx believed time invested. I can labor for hours making the world's most perfect mud pie. I can design invest in and build mud pie fabricating machines and at the end of a production run costing millions of dollars if no one would by my mud pies they would be worthless. Would you like to buy a clump of mud in the shape of a pie?

Now while I am sure someone would pay more for you than a baby the difference would not be all that much and in fact in some cases the baby would win.

---

all of my current career choices are between 6 and 7 figures annually. there is high demand for all of those positions. i am a good student. wanna bet that i'm worth more than 50% (being optimistic) of what any one child born this year will ever be worth?

my point is that even if i died today and even if a child was born today who would become what i want to be and could only do that if i wasn't alive, the world would still have lost roughly $300,000 on wasted time. if we abort a child like that, instead of costing about $600,000, it would cost $300,000 and the world will have a new pharmaceutical lawyer/corporate lawyer/lobbyist in about 5 years as opposed to 27 years.

-------
cuz i'm feelin for him what he's feelin for me

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Quote: from Elm at 8:44 am on July 24, 2008

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 Maybe we should hear people who are living happy lives now who grew up in houses where they weren't wanted and you  can tell them you would have spared them their life out of some sense of charity.

---

Had then never been born, and never had a fully functioning brain, then they would never have known.

But then again, why don't you talk to the children who's mothers put them in a dumpster after they were born?  Then again, those one's don't usually make it.  Or the babies who are killed through induced miscarriage in later stages of the cycle.

If the mother doesn't want to, and can't take care of it, then they WON'T.  It's as simple as that.  Those that are against abortion won't kill their kid, or force themselves to have a miscarriage.  They will make sure the child has a good life (whether that means raising the child themself, or putting the child up for adoption).  But there are many people that want an abortion, and they will do anything to get rid of the child.

Likewise, I can talk to myself.  I was an accident, quite clearly.  Being born with two parents that had been arguing from birth, and I was born ten years after both my sisters.  All my life, I've grown up feeling that I'm part of the reason to blame that my parents were still together.  My dad telling me that he was suffering for ME, and that he was 'living in this hell hole' for me.  Don't get me wrong, my parents loved me, I love my life.  Then again, I started thinking about suicide when I was 10, and up until recently (at 18) I'm finally out of that stage, now that I've moved out.

But even today, I still blame myself a bit... there are days where that hatred comes back and I want to give it up.  I hate the "sacrifices" people make for me... they love me, so they hurt themselves for me?  Many, MANY times, I have thought myself better of dead, and better off not born.  My older sister once slipped up, and said in front of me and my dad, "then you shouldn't have had a THIRD child".

I got lucky, my parents were older, my dad was pretty wealthy.  But an argument between my parents caused him to give that up, make us move, and money became a LARGE issue.  Every day it was, "I honestly don't have the money", "I can't give you any money for gas", "I don't have the money to buy toilet paper" (I always have my own roll of toilet paper in my room now because of the one time he refused to buy toilet paper and I had to take some home from school every day).  Of course... my dad was a bit weird... He had the money, I think... but because of the arguments between him and my mom (and they wouldn't divorce, probably because they felt some kind of duty to me), he wouldn't buy toilet paper...

But that gets me thinking... what about those that can't financially afford the child?  Can't take the child to see a psychologist or a doctor after she's had 8 months of straight back pain?  What about those that can't bring the child the basic needs he or she needs?

All in all?  I see it this way.  HAD I been aborted, I wouldn't KNOW of a life to miss.  I wouldn't have had a conscious brain... I don't even remember before I was 4-5 years old.  I had a good life to be honest... some things were a bit messed up (but that's everyone's life, and I am SO thankful for everything I've been given), but at least I had parents that LOVED me.  I WAS wanted... I can't imagine living in a household growing up knowing you WEREN'T wanted, because the only thing that kept me going was knowing I had people that cared.  It's because of the way ~I~ grew up that I can understand abortion... though it makes me truly upset if someone doesn't even bother to take the right steps to avoid the pregnancy in the first place.

----

Overall, I can't imagine aborting a child myself.  But there are some people that AREN'T fit to be mothers, but they still have the child.  I've seen a few cases of it... and it hurts to see.  The child is so innocent, and yet the mother is out partying every day, spends all her money on clothes, and never bothered to help teach her chid how to read.  Then again, knowing this person, chances are, she didn't use birth control and that's why it happened.

The thought of being forced to abort my own child is enough to bring me to tears.  It's the only thing I want out of life... to raise a family.  Could I abort a child?  Probably not... but then again, I'm not planning on getting pregnant any time soon.

I need to work on writing less -__-'.

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Your own personal issues are immaterial.  Living humans posses rights which are inalienable and it is immoral to violate these rights.  It matters not if a person intent on committing murder will commit murder regardless of the law to the contrary ( as you say a woman wishing to kill her child may be ) as we cannot (and should not) regulate the human mind.  We can however regulate action and the action would cause the would-be-murder to take increased risk on themselves to pursue their goal.  This discourages the act from being pursued and in some cases causes retribution for the act outside of our legal system (some murderers are killed by their victims during the course of the murder).

As to your retort about them never having been born.  If I were to kill you tonight in your sleep you would never wake up to be able to protest your murder and you would have no ability to understand you were murdered.  Does this then make the act of murdering you just?

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Quote: from Elm at 8:41 am on July 24, 2008

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Quote: from Praise the Lard at 1:37 pm on July 21, 2008

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Quote: from Elm at 1:30 pm on July 21, 2008

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Quote: from Praise the Lard at 10:26 pm on July 16, 2008

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i don't feel the need to equate abortion to anything    
    it's just the right thing to do    
    there are too many people around

---

   

   Then you wouldn't mind removing yourself would you?

---

 

  that would be a waste of money  
  i have 20 years of food, housing, schooling, etc invested in me that would be lost if i died  
  killing unborn babies is a pittance relative to the hundreds of thousands that i am worth

---

 

 Your worth is only based on what someone is willing to pay you.  Money invested in you doesn't equate worth or even as Marx believed time invested.  I can labor for hours making the world's most perfect mud pie.  I can design invest in and build mud pie fabricating machines and at the end of a production run costing millions of dollars if no one would by my mud pies they would be worthless.  Would you like to buy a clump of mud in the shape of a pie?  

 Now while I am sure someone would pay more for you than a baby the difference would not be all that much and in fact in some cases the baby would win.

---

all of my current career choices are between 6 and 7 figures annually. there is high demand for all of those positions. i am a good student. wanna bet that i'm worth more than 50% (being optimistic) of what any one child born this year will ever be worth?

my point is that even if i died today and even if a child was born today who would become what i want to be and could only do that if i wasn't alive, the world would still have lost roughly $300,000 on wasted time. if we abort a child like that, instead of costing about $600,000, it would cost $300,000 and the world will have a new pharmaceutical lawyer/corporate lawyer/lobbyist in about 5 years as opposed to 27 years.

---

In neither case would money be wasted, it would simply have changed hands.  The point I was trying to make is that you cannot declare by fiat a value on anything - it is always determined by a sum of inputs usually averaged out in the course of time.

The very idea that you are comfortable attaching monetary value to human lives as a compelling reason for the ending of those lives to be justified is abhorrent.  If the only way that anyone has value at all to you comes from your estimate of their monetary worth than I suggest you first seek counseling.  Secondly you should understand that even in the most amoral system defending the rights of others behooves you for it reinforces the consideration of your own rights should you be unjustly targeted.

---

Your own personal issues are immaterial. Living humans posses rights which are inalienable and it is immoral to violate these rights. It matters not if a person intent on committing murder will commit murder regardless of the law to the contrary ( as you say a woman wishing to kill her child may be ) as we cannot (and should not) regulate the human mind. We can however regulate action and the action would cause the would-be-murder to take increased risk on themselves to pursue their goal. This discourages the act from being pursued and in some cases causes retribution for the act outside of our legal system (some murderers are killed by their victims during the course of the murder).

As to your retort about them never having been born. If I were to kill you tonight in your sleep you would never wake up to be able to protest your murder and you would have no ability to understand you were murdered. Does this then make the act of murdering you just?

---

The problem here is that you are correlating murder and abortion as similar things.  You can't use the justification of murder to convince me that abortion is wrong, because I don't, and never will, see abortion as a murder.  In later stages of the pregnancy, I would consider it the death of a ~child~ (though not murder).  In the beginning stages, I consider it the death of more or less, cells.  It seems heartless, and the thought of any one aborting a child makes me very upset, espcially someone who never gave a damn in the first place.  But there are some people, weighing the factors, that are left with a hard choice to make... and I can respect that they took the efforts to avoid it, and I can respect that they truly thought over the situation before merely deciding on an abortion...

In terms of you killing me in my sleep.  As I have already been born, I have a functioning brain that has memories.  I have a past but killing me won't make me upset about my future.  If anything, the only reason that killing me would sadden me is because of all the people that it would hurt from my loss.  Of course, after I'm dead it wouldn't matter, so I couldn't care less... sad yes, do I want to die right now?  Depends on my mood.  But I have my own duties to others and myself that I'll continue doing until my time comes, taking my own life would be a disservice to those that have helped me in the past.  A baby doesn't develop the feeling of 'pain' until later stages.  It's in basic development by around 2 months, if I remember correctly, but from what I remember, it's not very developed or causing pain until much later.  A child killed by its mother however, will be much different.  JUST as it must hurt a child to be forcefully miscarried as well.  Just a thought.. using your terms, I would much rather a mother legally murder her child when it's barely developed without a completely functioning brain of pain system, than having it killed later or after birth.

--

In another way to look at it... how many children are orphans these days?  How many people rely on abortion?  Of those people, how many of them do you think would have kept the child if they were forced to give birth?  How many would turn to adoption services?  I find it hard to believe that it would be in the mere hundreds, to be honest.  It's something interesting to think about, but it's also the matter of population control.  Sounds stupid, sounds horrible... but it's true.  I would be MUCH happier if people actually took the time to understand how to use birth control other than thinking things like, "I can just get an abortion".  It's really quite disgusting in my opinion, and I don't want to support those actions...  but I think that the consequences without the abortion may end up being far worse.

---

Quote: from N e o at 1:37 am on July 17, 2008

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Just as some species of ant's are not capable of living without being part of a colony?

---

Ah, but this is different. These species you talk about are already living in the world.

"Babies" inside a mother are not living in the world. Maybe their own little world, but that is quite different.

---

Why not simply comparing killing babies to killing ant-eggs then. What's the difference those eggs are defenseless and not already living and they are completely dependent on the host colony.

-------
Who dares wins. - Special Air Service

The problem here is that you are correlating murder and abortion as similar things.  You can't use the justification of murder to convince me that abortion is wrong, because I don't, and never will, see abortion as a murder.

Why?  There should be no absolutes on your thought process as that is a sign of a closed mind.  If you are denied either logical connections or information both should be new inputs and considerations that should reflect your final judgment.  Having a closed mind is one that will not change regardless of new information.  If that is the case then why do you bother having discussions it is just as pointless as a very religious person screaming at an atheist as your belief and theirs is a matter of faith and not fact.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
In later stages of the pregnancy, I would consider it the death of a ~child~ (though not murder).  In the beginning stages, I consider it the death of more or less, cells.

There are many problems with this thought process.  One children are defined as non mature humans thus if you view the willful death of a human child as non murder it must be logically all inclusive.  Two you are simply a collection of cells more or less than others, by your standard anyone who considers you to only be a collection of more or less cells would be allowed to kill you.  This is speaking from a purely logical critique of your statements.  

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
It seems heartless, and the thought of any one aborting a child makes me very upset, espcially someone who never gave a damn in the first place.

This should not be a discussion about "feeling".  Once one has come to the conclusion that murder is a moral wrong one must enforce with rational symmetry that position without the interjection of feeling.  To do otherwise is to develop a contradiction which would collapse the argument.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
But there are some people, weighing the factors, that are left with a hard choice to make... and I can respect that they took the efforts to avoid it, and I can respect that they truly thought over the situation before merely deciding on an abortion...

Many people weigh heavily the not-easy options of killing their spouse and have taken efforts to avoid it throughout the relationship but arrive at the hard choice to decide to kill them.  Can you respect that?  A living human is a living human and we have inherent rights one of them is life.  Simply because the life of one human may make your life less ideal is not an excuse for killing them under any circumstance.  

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
In terms of you killing me in my sleep.  As I have already been born, I have a functioning brain that has memories. [/quote[

So you are changing the goalposts of what you consider human to be to now be something "with a functioning brain that has memories"?  Since children don't develop the ability to recall memories until after the first year after birth you could not then consider them human.  Thus you must logically accept the killing of 9 month old children to also be "not murder".

You see the the problem here of course - you have to redefine what your standards are every time I point out how your standards will lead to something that you consider murder.  

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
I have a past but killing me won't make me upset about my future.  If anything, the only reason that killing me would sadden me is because of all the people that it would hurt from my loss.  Of course, after I'm dead it wouldn't matter, so I couldn't care less... sad yes, do I want to die right now?  Depends on my mood.  But I have my own duties to others and myself that I'll continue doing until my time comes, taking my own life would be a disservice to those that have helped me in the past.  

Then let me kill you and let others sue me for causing a void in their contract with you.  You won't feel sad that others may miss you or you have duties to for you will be dead.  You have no duties to others or yourself when you are dead so why not allow me to kill you painlessly in your sleep?  You haven't offered a rebuttal that met your original criteria.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
A baby doesn't develop the feeling of 'pain' until later stages.  It's in basic development by around 2 months, if I remember correctly, but from what I remember, it's not very developed or causing pain until much later.  A child killed by its mother however, will be much different.

So we are now at a standard of pain (again?) killing you painlessly in your sleep causes no pain so if that is your standard please allow me to execute you.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
JUST as it must hurt a child to be forcefully miscarried as well.  Just a thought.. using your terms, I would much rather a mother legally murder her child when it's barely developed without a completely functioning brain of pain system, than having it killed later or after birth.

So now the definition of abortion is "legal murder"?  It is a start at least.  Perhaps the idea that the child is never killed isn't an option for you?  It may be allowed to die which is simply following the natural path but to kill it is to take willful action.  This however is a special case of abortion and we are talking about the general case of abortion and not about causes with serious medical problems.
--
Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
In another way to look at it... how many children are orphans these days?

Not enough to fill the demand for adoptions.
Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
 How many people rely on abortion?  

Irrelevant.  Should we allow how many people rely on mugging others for their lifestyle be a call to legalize mugging?  

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
Of those people, how many of them do you think would have kept the child if they were forced to give birth?

Irrelevant see above.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
How many would turn to adoption services?

No doubt more.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
I find it hard to believe that it would be in the mere hundreds, to be honest.  It's something interesting to think about, but it's also the matter of population control.

Abortion as population control.  Here we are far removed from any moral aspects of it and you are seeking to say it functions as a good because it curbs our population.  Most abortions are performed on blacks and one of the main fighters to legalize abortion was championed by those supporting an attempt to curb the growth of the black population.  Eugenics in its most simple terms.  

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
Sounds stupid, sounds horrible... but it's true.  

Yes it sounds stupid and horrible because it is stupid and horrible.  If your reasoning must result to population control you've already lost in the minds of most readers.  If population control is a valid reason why the willful killing of other living humans is acceptable may I please exercise this rationale on you?  I thought not.

Quote: from Just Waiting Here at 3:05 pm on July 30, 2008
I would be MUCH happier if people actually took the time to understand how to use birth control other than thinking things like, "I can just get an abortion".  It's really quite disgusting in my opinion, and I don't want to support those actions...  but I think that the consequences without the abortion may end up being far worse.

The consequences may end up being far worse?  Worse than rampant murder under the banner of "population control"?

Lets look at what the results would be:
1. Less abortions - punishment discourages activity
2. More back alley abortions - The end result is that the person seeking to kill a human they are responsible for may suffer.  A murder being shot by the person they are trying to kill is usually seen as just so why would this be any different?
3. More adoptions
4. More incentive to use birth control

So we have these consequences
1. Less abortions
2. murders dying or becoming injured in the process of trying to murder another.
3. more adoptions
4. More pro active birth control

We compare that to hundreds of thousands of murders a year.  I think I know which result I will prefer.

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Quote: from N e o at 1:37 am on July 17, 2008

---

Just as some species of ant's are not capable of living without being part of a colony?

---

 

 Ah, but this is different. These species you talk about are already living in the world.  

 "Babies" inside a mother are not living in the world. Maybe their own little world, but that is quite different.

---

Please define 'living in the world" for me.  I offer that anything living in the earth's biosphere is not "living in the universe" and therefore ok to kill.

-Yes, we are all cells, everything is composed of them.  However, in the earlier stages, which I mentioned, it really is a bundle of unspecialized cells in the mere stage of splitting and increasing in number.  In later weeks, it starts taking on some shape, and a bit after that, you can start seeing certain features.  But abortion can be done fairly early, before 8 weeks.

-Feelings are a large part in what controls how we think and act.  You cannot merely remove feelings from any argument, because ultimately, in anything moralistic, you are considering your feelings.  If I remove feelings from it, then let's put it this way.  Why would I care if people were killed?  Why do you care about murder, if there are no feelings into it?  It's ~morally~ wrong?  Morals are based on feelings.  You cannot rationally explain something moral with only knowledge based facts.  It is wrong to kill?  Why is that wrong?  You're taking away someone else's choice?  Why does that matter?  There are no purely knowledge based facts to argue something 'moral' because everything moralistic varies from person to person.  You can't argue that ~your~ morals are right, and someone else's are wrong.  Murder is frowned upon in our society, but a murderer could find it morally correct to kill.  The law, in many cases, dictates what is right and wrong... but really, what determines right and wrong?  Who has the right to decide?

-It depends on the reasons that forced them to do it.  I don't like death of any kind (nor do I like abortion, which I have made clear), and it's not something that ~I~ would ever do or respect.  But I don't make my values to be the right values for everyone's lifestyles.  If I was in their situation?  Maybe I would feel different, but I'm not.  From my stand point, there should have been a better option... but from hers, maybe the spouse threatened to kill someone they cared for if they left, maybe the spouse was trying to force a miscarriage when she wanted to keep the child... was it right to kill?  Personally, I would argue not.  I can't kill any form of animal either, unless I feel some form of threat to my own life or those around me, even then, I have to give a verbal warning and apology to the animal (And we're talking about mosquitoes, ticks, etc).  If I was in her shoes, would I argue differently?  Possibly, who knows... if I truly felt threatened, then maybe.  If she only killed for the prospect of money?  Then no.  I don't think something so materialistic is something that justifies something like that.  Ultimately, through my thoughts and feelings.  No, I can't respect them, nor will I respect them, unless they have some form of extreme circumstance.

-Yes, but a 9-month-old child has a functioning brain and can now independently support itself.  A child in the later stages of a pregnancy can actually be taken out of the mother's stomach prematurely and sustain life independently as well.  You  stated that I am 'redefining' my standards.  However, you don't have a clear grasp on my standards, and you cannot state that I'm redefining how I think, when nothing has changed from before we started this conversation.  I'm merely stating how I view things, and you use your own views to show what that means to you.  Me stating 'a functioning brain with memories', translates to you as the same level of killing someone who cannot remember.

-I don't know what to say to that... Because honestly, the only thing I can think is "Go ahead, kill me."  But really, I'd rather die a death with pain, than dying in my sleep, personally.  Again, though I try, I honestly see no relevance in this debate.  For you, if I say, "well, I don't want to die", that means that that justifies that abortion is wrong.  But for me, those two are not related in any sense.  You can tell me that I'm in denial, but truly, I'm not.  It's my views.  I see a large difference between a human that is outside of the womb sustaining it's own life, than a child that has yet to develop a functional brain.

-Sure.  Again, I would prefer a more painful death, truthfully.

-"So now the definition of abortion is "legal murder"?  It is a start at least."  No, because I clearly stated that I was using that term based on YOUR definition, and not my own.  Likewise, yes, some children can lead a happy life, and some children can grow up and be thankful for it.  But I also think about the other consequences of it, and how many children in turn will be hurt by it.  For me... having no children hurt, is better than having 50 happy and 50 killed, miserable, or abused.

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I'd like to see some statistics on those things.  There are many children in this world that need homes, ALL over the country, and there are MORE than enough worldwide to cover this demand that you're speaking of.  And yes, I do think that getting rid of abortion and what it might do to the economy and the world today are important

I think this is perhaps the most disturbing part of your reply "It depends on the reasons that forced them to do it.  I don't like death of any kind (nor do I like abortion, which I have made clear), and it's not something that ~I~ would ever do or respect.  But I don't make my values to be the right values for everyone's lifestyles."

I understand not being judgmental however you are talking about being afraid of judging any action another takes.  That is inane.  A person murders twelve people after raping them for instance and you would hesitate lest that monster consider you judgmental.  Human civilization doesn't exist without protecting at least some rights of individuals against the trespasses of others.  A very simple phrase that expresses this is "The man who stands up for nothing doesn't stand for anything."  Another one is "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."  This isn't just about abortion but this statement of yours delves deep into your psychological frame of mind.  You are terrified of being called judgmental even to the point of allowing horror for horror's sake.  In fact that line of thought leads you to say "    Reply

-I don't have a closed mind, and I'm very open to discussion, which is why I'm bothering with this in the first place.  I have thought about this on many occasions.  I have read many arguments and argued within myself many times.  I do not consider abortion to be murder in any form.  I'm not ignoring your arguments because of this fact, but you can't correlate murder and abortion for me, as I find that it is NOT murder.  You are welcome to show me your reasons, and I will consider them, and I will be 100% honest with you if that changes my views... but I have seen many arguments time and time again, and have yet to find a reason to consider it to be anything along the lines of murder.

-Yes, we are all cells, everything is composed of them.  However, in the earlier stages, which I mentioned, it really is a bundle of unspecialized cells in the mere stage of splitting and increasing in number.  In later weeks, it starts taking on some shape, and a bit after that, you can start seeing certain features.  But abortion can be done fairly early, before 8 weeks.

-Feelings are a large part in what controls how we think and act.  You cannot merely remove feelings from any argument, because ultimately, in anything moralistic, you are considering your feelings.  If I remove feelings from it, then let's put it this way.  Why would I care if people were killed?  Why do you care about murder, if there are no feelings into it?  It's ~morally~ wrong?  Morals are based on feelings.  You cannot rationally explain something moral with only knowledge based facts.  It is wrong to kill?  Why is that wrong?  You're taking away someone else's choice?  Why does that matter?  There are no purely knowledge based facts to argue something 'moral' because everything moralistic varies from person to person.  You can't argue that ~your~ morals are right, and someone else's are wrong.  Murder is frowned upon in our society, but a murderer could find it morally correct to kill.  The law, in many cases, dictates what is right and wrong... but really, what determines right and wrong?  Who has the right to decide?

-It depends on the reasons that forced them to do it.  I don't like death of any kind (nor do I like abortion, which I have made clear), and it's not something that ~I~ would ever do or respect.  But I don't make my values to be the right values for everyone's lifestyles.  If I was in their situation?  Maybe I would feel different, but I'm not.  From my stand point, there should have been a better option... but from hers, maybe the spouse threatened to kill someone they cared for if they left, maybe the spouse was trying to force a miscarriage when she wanted to keep the child... was it right to kill?  Personally, I would argue not.  I can't kill any form of animal either, unless I feel some form of threat to my own life or those around me, even then, I have to give a verbal warning and apology to the animal (And we're talking about mosquitoes, ticks, etc).  If I was in her shoes, would I argue differently?  Possibly, who knows... if I truly felt threatened, then maybe.  If she only killed for the prospect of money?  Then no.  I don't think something so materialistic is something that justifies something like that.  Ultimately, through my thoughts and feelings.  No, I can't respect them, nor will I respect them, unless they have some form of extreme circumstance.

-Yes, but a 9-month-old child has a functioning brain and can now independently support itself.  A child in the later stages of a pregnancy can actually be taken out of the mother's stomach prematurely and sustain life independently as well.  You  stated that I am 'redefining' my standards.  However, you don't have a clear grasp on my standards, and you cannot state that I'm redefining how I think, when nothing has changed from before we started this conversation.  I'm merely stating how I view things, and you use your own views to show what that means to you.  Me stating 'a functioning brain with memories', translates to you as the same level of killing someone who cannot remember.

-I don't know what to say to that... Because honestly, the only thing I can think is "Go ahead, kill me.""

You would surrender your life rather than say that human life is worth protecting by law.  That amazes me and I hope shows you exactly why that line of reasoning is relevant.  In order to support abortion the way you have argued it you must be willing to surrender your own life to those who would prey on you.

That right there is an example of a failure of a species.  The only thing we are created to do biologically is live long enough to reproduce.  Thats it.  If you've become so unable to withstand the criticisms of others that you would die than have some others dislike you then I utterly lack the ability to ever show you where you've wronged.

My logic cannot compete with emotion for they are two entirely different systems emotion impacts logic not at all and logic does not impact emotion.  My only hope now is that those who read this thread can see what a twisted walk is necessary in order to arrive at the conclusions you have and know that most of them will not be willing to lay down their lives because you don't want people to think ill of you.

In all of this you have changed your basis for what constitutes a thin one can't kill from one that one can.  Every time you are challenged on the definition you have offered last you change it.  It seems you don't have a clear definition yourself so how could you possibly give one to me.  You don't have a standard and thus you cannot possibly apply it evenly.  This indicates you are only defending via emotion and not logic.  You can't pinpoint a logical definition let alone a logical reason to differentiate between humans in that stage of their life cycle.  This just won't do.

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You may consider yourself open minded however if you honestly will not change your mind regardless of what is presented then you are actually close minded. It doesn't matter how many times you argue something you should always be open to the possibility of change. When you close off that possibility you aren't engaging in either argument or discussion you are engaging in proselytizing your faith.

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I read all your comments, I accept them, I think about them, but I don't necessarily agree.  I think they are valid points, and you make very good and clear arguments, but certain aspects of it, or your method of proof, aren't things that convince me into changing anything major in my views.

I would like to know why I am closed minded for not agreeing with you when YOU are open minded despite not agreeing with me.  I never said that I wouldn't change my views no matter what you stated.  In fact, I even made sure to specify that the arguments you use are things that I have heard and read time and time again.  Until you present me with something new to think about, then your arguments will have little affect on my stand on this manner.  It's not like I disregard your arguments.

And yes, I will not deny that I do have an extreme problem with those that judge me.  It goes much farther than merely depending my side of the value, and this mentality causes me a great deal of trouble with myself.  But ultimately, it's a part of who I am, and it's something that shapes how I think and define the world.  I try not to judge based on the initial facts, though in some cases I do.  If I was told that some man raped 12 women, and murdered others... I would, in no way, justify his killing, or try and justify it.  If a man raped one woman, I wouldn't justify it.  However, if a man killed one woman, it would bring me to question why.  In most cases, I don't see a logical reason for justification in this matter.  But the possibility still exists to me.  I still regret any life loss, no matter who the person is.  If the killer of 50 people was killed, I'd be upset for everyone, including the killer.

Likewise, I suppose I didn't clarify as to why I stated my death is irrelevant.  By no means do I want to use my death as a way to support my argument.  That's stupid and it has no base to it.  I meant it this way.  Using MY death to prove something to ME has no grounds.  I'm not suicidal nor would I consider turning to it, but at the same time, the thought of death doesn't exactly disconcert me.  I go to sleep many nights wondering if I won't wake up... and the scariest thing for me is not knowing that it's coming.  I would rather watch myself bleed to death than die peacefully without realizing it, personally.

Again, I can't really explain what I mean well (there's a reason why English has been and will always be my worst subject), me dying isn't part of my argument.  I'm merely requesting another scenario that you could use that would be more effective on the normal mindset of people.  Sadly, in many cases, I value others' lives much more than my own.  Yes, that's an issue, yes, I've been working on changing it (and I've gotten much better, believe it or not), but it's also not something easy to control.  Either way, that's not the issue at hand.

All in all, I know you say I'm unclear, and I can see why you think that looking over my posts.  In my head, it's very clear, but voicing my opinions through words isn't something that comes naturally.  I'm sure there will always be some faults in my argument, but that's also because you're arguing the other side of it.  At the end of the day, there will always be room for debate, and my morals will never be justifiable to you or to those that think like you, just as vice versa goes.

Who knows, maybe I just think of some of the lives I've seen and heard about these days... and it saddens me.  Emotional suffering scars so deeply, and for me, emotional pain hurts much more than that of physical.

What I think would be most ideal is to put changes on abortion to not make it so readily available.  I see so many negatives coming from this, because there are many people that are pro-abortion.  It's not a simple matter of saying it's immoral to get rid of it... because there are those that really don't think much of it.  Giving all women access to birth control at cheaper prices.  Removing insurance from covering abortion that has no medical or other serious justification.  Possibly increasing the price (but this may cause problems).  Putting a shorter limit rather than 24 weeks to get an abortion.  Making a limit of 1 or 2 abortions per lifetime (again with specific cases).  Increasing education on birth control and touching on common misconceptions.  Things like that.

I suppose this is the best way I can put it, and of course.  But I see more harm than benefits coming from suddenly getting rid of abortion.  I think it'll cause some more serious affects in terms of children death rates, induced miscarriages (not done surgically or through the pill), suicide, orphans, etc... maybe more people with twisted thoughts like me, who knows.  I think a more gradual change would be better.  Increasing the limits, but leaving the option.  From there, if the number of abortions reduce and there are no other noticeable affects on anything, then you can push for more.  A sudden change on something so relied upon by many people, will most often cause a great deal more trouble than initially thought out.

All in all, let's put it this way, and my lack of clarification in my speech and my two contrasting views are probably the total reason for my lack of decisiveness... Morally, I think abortion is wrong.  Logically, I think that it should be allowed, and for that reason, I bring myself to try and understand why it was legalized in the first place.  The latter view is why I consider myself to be pro-abortion.  I find the former view to be SOLELY based on emotions alone.  This is what I decided quite a while ago when debating the issue with myself.  Ironic, because you argue logic against abortion.

Lol, thinking about it right now, I think I've found my biggest problem with the debate, an epiphany in a sense.  I think the problem is that I AGREE with you... but knowing how the majority of people are in the world today, I have to argue different because of how I think people will react.  If I could see solid proof (and since we can't see into the future, there's no way to do so), that eliminating abortion would create a great deal of benefits, then I wouldn't hesitate the push against abortion... does that make sense?  This, in turn, causes me to seek reasons to justify it, so that it doesn't seem as horrible...?  *sigh* I don't know... oh well, it's got me thinking again :).

Maybe you've "won" the debate, I truly do enjoy it, whether or not I rebutt all your statements that you consider contradictory day by day.  I admire your dedication to the topic :).  At the end of the day, I stand by my thoughts.  I can't rid myself of emotions, nor can most people in this life time.  It's the emotions that make us human and give us morals.  Without them, you wouldn't care about the lives of others or your own life.  Much of how we were raised dictates how we think and act (in my opinion it's a mix of nature and nurture).  Whether or not it's right or wrong to you does not mean that I can control my mind into feeling the same.  Who knows, if only we could see how this argument would be had we grown up in opposite lifestyles.  It would be interesting to see how nature versus nurture can really control a person.

:)  Thanks again, I enjoyed the conversation.  You're more than welcome to respond back (not like I could stop you :P), I'll read it, and I may respond again.  But you won't get much from me any more.  I've stated how I think, and I can't really back up my own points, I never really have been able to.  Maybe if you look around, you can find someone here that can give you the level of debate that you need :).  I'll keep thinking about it, I always do, and I always talk to myself about it.  I really am torn, but I always try to argue one side of an argument to try and improve on my lack in supporting facts or supporting myself.  Like you said, "The man who stands up for nothing doesn't stand for anything." and I've known for quite sometime that I am essentially the man in that statement.

I'm rambling again, hopefully there was something in there that made sense.  And this is where I go to bed at night wondering if I'm only saying words to try and prove to ~you~ that I'm not judgemental.  Self-analysis can be so irritating sometimes.  I apologize, it's late, and I was on my way to bed.  I truly apologize if you actually wasted any time reading all this... Night :).